E3DDS Stakeholder 20180917

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  • Monday Sept 17th 2018, 10:30 - 17:00 CEST

List of Attendees

Objectives for the meeting

The E3DDS stakeholder forum gathers representatives from the NeIC EISCAT_3D Data Solutions project, NeIC, EISCAT, EISCAT_3D users, national e-Infrastructure providers and network providers in order to achieve the goals:

  1. To update each other about progress of projects and e-Infrastructure roadmaps;
  2. To intensify the collaboration between the EISCAT_3D Data Solutions project and the providers for network and e-Infrastructures.

The general objective of this meeting is to bring together the EISCAT_3D technical community with national providers of HTC/HPC and networking from the relevant countries. The goals of the meeting include the need to update each other of statuses and time-lines of national providers and the EISCAT_3D activities.


  • Meeting chair: Tomasz Malkiewicz, NeIC
  • 10h00 - 10h30 Coffee
  • 10h30 - 10h45 Welcome slides (Tomasz Malkiewicz, NeIC)
  • 10h45 - 11h10 Status of the EISCAT_3D project slides (Harri Hellgren, EISCAT)
  • 11h10 - 11h35 Status of the E3DDS project slides(John White, NeIC)
  • 11h35 - 11h55 Status installation to Skibotn site slides (Helge Stranden, Uninett)
  • 11h55 - 12h15 Nordic Network Plans slides(Lars Fischer, NorduNet)
  • 12h15 - 14h00 Lunch
  • 14h20 - 14h40 EISCAT_3D Data/Metadata (Carl-Fredrik Enell, EISCAT) (Slides here)
  • 14h40 - 15h00 Progress on Norway National e-infrastructure slides (Roy Dragseth, UiT)
  • 15h00 - 15h20 Progress on Swedish National e-infrastructure (Mattias Wadenstein, HPC2N) (Slides)
  • 15h30 - 16h00 Coffee
  • 16h00 - 16h30 Progress on Finnish National e-infrastructure
    • Procurement project, Ari Lukkarinen, CSC
    • Network Matti Laipio slides, CSC
  • 16h30 - 17h00 Discussion: Operational profiling of EISCAT_3D. slides (John White, NeIC)



Börje Josefsson (SUNET)

Per Nilhen (SUNET)

Carl-Fredrik Enell (EISCAT)

Ingemar Häggström (EISCAT)

Harri Hellgren (EISCAT)

Jan Meijer (UNIT, NO)

Jani Myyry (CSC,FI)

Teemu Kiviniemi (CSC,FI)

Ari Lukkarinen (CSC,FI)

Vidar Faltinsen (uninett, NO)

Roy Dragseth (uninett, NO)

John White (NeIC)

Helge Stranden (UiT, NO)

Dan Jonsson (UiT, NO)

Tomasz Malkiewicz (NeIC)

Mattias Wadenstein (SNIC, SE)

Lars Fischer (NORDUnet)

Thomas Malkiewicz, Intro

  • Introduction of participants
  • Note: INFRAEOSC-5 call, deadline in November
  • Project overview: a recognized project with a well-functioning team
  • No questions received.

Harri Hellgren, E3D status

  • Skibotn Cable installations going on, Drillings, Ground preparations in November
  • Karesuvanto Parmit given
  • Kaiseniemi Negotiations in progress
  • antenna array

-Vendor ECRIEE, China -design review done -first delivery January

  • FSRU

-Vendor DA Design, Forssa, FI -Requirements review: HH, CH et al visiting today as of writing(Tue Sept 18) -2x91 channel digital receivers -First delivery May 2019

  • Tx units -bidding done, 9 offers received, 5 shortlisted
  • Software group formed in April Jussi Markkanen et al
    • Simon (New programmer) starting end November
    • Distributed database suggested
  • Site networks White Rabbit and control 1 Gb/s. Data suggested 25 Gb/s connections
  • Experiment management. Master event list approach
  • Site beamformer architecture -ring buffer: RAM drives cost
  • No questions received.

John White: E3DDS project status

  • See slides
  • Project on time etc so far.
  • No questions received.

Lars Fischer: Networking for Eiscat 3D

  • See slides.
  • Ring needed, new fibre where necessary. 10 Gb/s initially, upgrade to 100 Gb/s (Existing Tromsø-Narvik-Kiruna-Kalix-Sodankylä. New Tromsø-Skibotn-Kilpisjärvi, lease fiber Kilpis-Kar-Sodankylä)
  • Site connectivity: Skibotn summer 2019, Karesuvanto and Kaiseniemi summer 2020
  • Comment: Low-cost does not mean low quality. If we go with the equipment that is in fashion for the cluod providers right now then we will get the best price and support.
  • Q: Tomasz: In the costs are the local loops included?
  • A: Lars: Skibotn included. Others not yet.
  • Q:TM: General question... re-use of existing networks?
  • A:LF: Yes.

Helge Stranden: Skibotn network status

See slides.

  • C:Teemu Kiviniemi: Nice to see actual pictures of the site.
  • C:Harri: We have the building permit for the Skibotn site.
  • C:Helge: Won't pull fibre yet until buildings are complete.
  • Q:Vidar: Will the network be in place next summer?
  • A:Harri: We want to do the antennas first. Late Autumn. High-speed next winter. House comes later. No data connection before the house. Infer the network arrives in summer 2020?
  • C:Borje: Need to do this in the summer when abaove zero.

Status of Delivery 1: Mattias Wadenstein

  • See slides
  • C:Jani: Check out the PIR-4 standard for the breakout cables from 100 to 4x25 Gbit/s could be interesting.
  • Q:Roy: So you plan to connect directly to the servers?
  • A:Mattias: Yes, that's an option.
  • C:Harri: There is the same traffic on the back-plane of the servers.
  • C:???: Input the FSRUs directly to nodes... 4-6 sub-arrays per node? Is an option if 25 Gbit/s from each FSRU. Should check this option out.

EISCAT_3D Data/Metadata (Carl-Fredrik Enell, EISCAT)

  • See slides.
  • Q:Roy: How about DOIs of subsets of data?
  • A:Carl-Fredrik/Ingemar: This is exactly the type of use-case we need. Users will select data sets themselves.
  • C: Ari: Could own a prefix for EISCAT data? DataSite (check this). B2Share also.
  • C: Carl-Fredrik: We also look at other PID providers...
  • Q:???: What is available at the sites? (data and metadata)
  • A:Mattias: There is a reference to the metadata catalogue... data catalogue. The storage system only knows URLs or files.
  • C: Ari: We should check if SE and NO are members of DataSite. (Action for Ari?)
  • C: John: Should check out the notes from the EUDAT pilot meeting from August 2015!! Found the link: https://wiki.neic.no/wiki/EISCAT_3D_EUDAT_pilot_meeting

Roy Dragseth: NO e-infra status

  • See slides


  • Q: Tomasz: For Fram/Abel: is there a timeline?
  • A: Roy: High I/O system 1st half 2019: Abel off
  • A: Roy: Parallel system B1 in place second half of 2019: Stallo off
  • C: Roy: We will have trimmed down the physical locations... but still have B1,C1,Fram,??
  • Q: ???: For EISCAT how about containers? See any containers etc?
  • A: Roy: RD: Standardized containers... should be OK. More a question of where is the data is where you run your computing.

Mattias Wadenstein: SE national e-infra status

  • See slides
  • Q: Tomasz: How about the SNIC procedure to access resources? In the CA agreement the national providers provide infra resources for EISCAT.
  • A: Mattias: Not a problem. There are plenty of Swedish PIs in EISCAT.
  • C: Roy: Same as in Norway. So long there's a Norwegian PI it is fine.
  • Q: ???: What would be the SSO for EISCAT?
  • A: Carl-Fredrik or Ingemar?: It would be IRF as we use their single sign-on.
  • Q: Tomasz: How about the Kebnekaise GPUs? Are there any GPUs in universities?
  • A: Mattias: Very few GPUs in Universities.

Ari Lukkarinen: New infrastructure for CSC

  • See slides
  • DL2021 a big deal!

Matti Laipio: Funet network status

  • See slides

Q:???: The fiber at top left... is this dark fibre or leased? A:Matti: Leased from private providers.

John White: Operational profiling

  • See slides
  • Roy: online data will cost, offloading to tape reduces cost significantly
  • CF: data embargo time for exp PI according to Eiscat statutes, reasonable to keep data online for first year?
  • MW: is it acceptable to wait for a day or so for data staging? Probably yes
  • Computing and storage can be set aside for campaigns if planned in advance
  • on-site computing to be used for user analysis? Is this practical?
  • Cost of data transfer between sites: covered by Nordunet agreement, transfer outside Nordics might imply volume fees
  • HH: with future 100 Gb/s connections, site computing can be moved to central facility
  • BJ: cost difference between 10 Gb/s and 100 Gb/s is minor, consider to avoid upgrade
  • MW: can we avoid local filewriter nodes? Disk servers should preferrably run in data centre

Next meeting

  • March 27th 10h30 in Espoo, Finland